If telling people that herbs lowers VL is what your into go for it.
And this is exactly what I mean about "argumentative".
I never stated that, I never condoned the theory.
Keep it up, I'm patient, but it's wearing really thin.
Moocow said
Oct 28, 2010
James, viral loads fluctuate on their own. Period. No one knows why. Not even you. Research gastros and hepatologists are not discounting milk thistle as of recent, crediting the fact that it sure doesn't hurt the liver.
So, are we done with this? Hmm?
James10500 said
Oct 28, 2010
Moocow do what ever you see fit.
If telling people that herbs lowers VL is what your into go for it.
DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR ???????????????????????
Moocow said
Oct 28, 2010
Here's the problem, Dori- us, as in moderators, do see your point and don't discount what measures you took.
Unfortunately, others do not always see it that way and also do not read posts carefully, comprehending the point.
In this particular situation, your views (understood or not) have caused a major uproar in the last day. The more you try to explain yourself, the more some others will try and disprove, thus: argument.
Some people cannot deal with others experiences or the very idea that natural remedies will be beneficial in their well-being. Myself, I would not agree with herbal remedies, simply because I've had adverse reactions to herbs in general. I also know they are not a cure.
However, it is apparent you are not stating it's a cure, therefore it is wrong for anyone to disparage what you have done to make yourself more comfortable considering you could not endure conventional treatment. Nothing wrong with that.
It rapidly became apparent that others thought you were a fool to even mention it.
I just think it's time for everyone to move on, agree to disagree and drop it altogether. We (as in moderators) realize just exactly whom the antagonists are, but you need to see this, also.
You didn't start this thread, but I think it would be wise to not respond anymore, because no matter what, some people will never get it, no matter how you explain it to them.
As for the banning of a member today, that person was banned for his response, which was an unacceptable tirade and will not be tolerated. It wasn't because of you, it was because of his behavior and response.
So, I'm going to close this- I'm done discussing it and I want everyone else to be done with it also. Move on to something else.
James10500 said
Oct 28, 2010
I am happy it makes you feel better !!!!
But it doesn't lower VL, that's all I'm saying. I am not telling you to not pursue herbal treatment. I am telling you that it isn't true that ML lowers VL. There is a huge difference between helping your liver and lowering your viral load. As far as that other herb, I simply do not believe it.
If you felt ridiculed by me suggesting herbal treatments were snake oil, I'm sorry. My only point was that it herbs do not lower VL.
I hope you remain undetectable the same way I hope we all get our health back.
Let me state this clearly. I wish you all the best, and I am sorry you are treatment intolerable.
If it were me, I'd either wait for a new drug. Or go back on Peg and Riba with better monitoring of my blood and adjust accordingly. As far as treatment intolerable, it's got my blood totally screwed too, if my RBC goes any lower I have to take Procrit because it's already to low, my WBC is still hanging in there but has dropped substantially as well.
How about we agree to disagree regarding VL and herbs, and leave it at that.
James
virginiap said
Oct 28, 2010
Moocow,
Sorry, I didn't think I was arguing. I was explaining. And asking what he would do in my situation. I understand. Consider the conversation over. Apologies.
-Dori
Moocow said
Oct 28, 2010
James, ONE more argumentative post and you're out. We are all done with this and you keep obsessing about it.
Do I make myself CLEAR?
Dori, stop feeding the situation, please. If you two want to argue, take it to private messaging. I see one more post about this, I'm going to take care of all of it. NONE of us have time for "who's right, who's wrong".
Just knock off the public arguing.
virginiap said
Oct 28, 2010
The HALT-C study mentioned above found that silymarin use by hepatitis C patients was associated with fewer and milder symptoms of liver disease and somewhat better quality of life, but there was no change in virus activity or liver inflammation. The researchers emphasize that this was a retrospective study, not a controlled clinical trial. More research on milk thistle for hepatitis C is needed before a recommendation can be made. So to say ML lowers VL, is inaccurate. Supported by the web-sites and articles presented by Dee.
Exactly. I'm treatment intolerant. I can't do the interferon/ribaviron again because it put me in the hospital.
I'm pretty sure most of the articles I posted stated that one or the other or both of these herbs help the liver stay healthier. Some of the articles state that more tests are needed. I wish they'd do more tests! That would be great! Doctors I know state these herbs can help keep the liver healthier for those who are treatment intolerant like me.
I have to do whatever I can do to HELP my liver stay as clean as possible and reduce inflammation since I am treatment intolerant. Some doctors and articles claim it does help reduce the viral load and reduce the inflammation but there haven't been enough tests yet to prove that. Some tests say it HAS been proven that these herbs help reduce inflammation and helps to cleanse the liver. Some don't. *shrug* I choose to believe that they can help me to keep the virus from coming back. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong.
"Fewer and milder symptoms of liver disease and a somewhat better quality of life" works for me. I'll take it! Since I am treatment intolerant (cannot take interferon/ribaviron because of how it effects my health with my white blood count so low that I have no immune system and ended up in the hospital), people like me have to do the best we can do. I hope and pray the virus remains undetected.
One doctor I know, however, did state that the Bulpeurum definitely brought the viral loads down for his patients. I have no reason to doubt him or question the validity of his statement. He's one of the most honest people I've ever known and he managed the dosages and blood tests for his patients. However, I have not done the research to find out what the status is regarding controlled tests of that particular herb. My guess is, controlled tests of either herb would more likely be found in China or Japan, not in the western world, as these eastern treatments, not western, for helping the liver stay healthy. Unfortunately, I don't read either Chinese or Japanese so I can't search those websites and find out. I AM going to try to find a Chinese Medicine/Western Medicine practitioner because in the US where I live there are some doctors who are practicing both. Even TV's Dr. Oz (i know so what, right? LOL) promotes supplements and Eastern medicine practices like acupuncture and others. Hey, and if the virus comes back? Guess what? I'm going to try acupuncture, too. Who knows what else I'll try. I'll try anything that seems like there is evidence that it can help if the virus returns. I don't want the darn virus in me. I tried to get rid of it, for now it's gone, so I'm taking precautions to KEEP it gone and if it comes back, I'll still be doing my research and doing what I can.
I posted a LOT of links last night. Many of the articles had references to other articles by NIH and other respected authorities in the footnotes. From what I've read and from advice I've been given by two different doctors, it is my opinion that both of these substances help the liver stay healthier.
I'm no salesman and I'm not a doctor. I'm just a person who got very sick from interferon/ribaviron which screwed me up bigtime and I was allergic to the only drug available they have to give me back an immune system while on those meds.
We all do the best we can. That's all I can say. I'm doing the best I can. I'm finding all the resources I can because I'm treatment intolerant and if the darn virus reappears, I can't take the current treatment so I want to do SOMETHING to try to help myself stay healthier while praying that the virus doesn't come back. What else can I do?
What would YOU do if you were treatment intolerant? Would you just do nothing? Just continue on your way and pretend like you never took the treatment and never had a bad reaction to it? Would you worry that the virus would come back or would you not care if it came back? If you knew you couldn't take the interferon and ribaviron and had been through a life-threatening reaction to the drugs, please tell me.. what would you do? I'd be curious to know.
Sorry the text is so large. The text editor doesn't seem to be working on my Safari browser for Mac. I can't make it smaller. Sorry.
Also, I read on another thread that someone got banned and I'm very very sorry about that! If the confrontation with me caused anybody to get banned, I feel extremely bad about it.
Sorry also but I said I wasn't coming back and here I am. I guess I'll keep coming back until people stop talking about what I posted. Once the topic is over and "as Dee quoted" etc stops, I'll stop replying.
-- Edited by virginiap on Thursday 28th of October 2010 11:47:13 PM
James10500 said
Oct 28, 2010
When comparing silymarin users to non-silymarin users in the HALT-C trial, the following was discovered:
1. No beneficial effect of silymarin was found on ALT levels (serum alanine aminotransferases) an enzyme often elevated with liver injury.
2. No beneficial effect of silymarin was found on Hepatitis C virus RNA levels.
3. Those on silymarin showed significantly fewer liver-related symptoms than non-users.
4. Those on silymarin scored higher on quality-of-life parameters than non-users.
5. After adjusting for age, race, education, alcohol consumption, exercise, body mass index and smoking, silymarin users showed significantly less fatigue, nausea, liver pain, anorexia, muscle and joint pain, and improvements in general health over non-users.
If you want to say Milk Thistle improves things for you fine. But that cut and paste is from an article, posted by D to support the statement
"I recommend lots of exercise, staying well hydrated, and taking milk thistle as well as bulpeurum (both milk thistle and bulpeurum are liver cleansers and are proven to reduce the viral load)."
Could I have been more constructive in my arguement that ML doesn't lower VL ? Yes. But an article posted by someone saying that ML lowers VL, says the exact opposite.
Here's another C&P from an alternative med website.
The HALT-C study mentioned above found that silymarin use by hepatitis C patients was associated with fewer and milder symptoms of liver disease and somewhat better quality of life, but there was no change in virus activity or liver inflammation. The researchers emphasize that this was a retrospective study, not a controlled clinical trial. More research on milk thistle for hepatitis C is needed before a recommendation can be made.
So to say ML lowers VL, is inaccurate. Supported by the web-sites and articles presented by Dee.
And this is exactly what I mean about "argumentative".
I never stated that, I never condoned the theory.
Keep it up, I'm patient, but it's wearing really thin.
So, are we done with this? Hmm?
Unfortunately, others do not always see it that way and also do not read posts carefully, comprehending the point.
In this particular situation, your views (understood or not) have caused a major uproar in the last day. The more you try to explain yourself, the more some others will try and disprove, thus: argument.
Some people cannot deal with others experiences or the very idea that natural remedies will be beneficial in their well-being. Myself, I would not agree with herbal remedies, simply because I've had adverse reactions to herbs in general. I also know they are not a cure.
However, it is apparent you are not stating it's a cure, therefore it is wrong for anyone to disparage what you have done to make yourself more comfortable considering you could not endure conventional treatment. Nothing wrong with that.
It rapidly became apparent that others thought you were a fool to even mention it.
I just think it's time for everyone to move on, agree to disagree and drop it altogether. We (as in moderators) realize just exactly whom the antagonists are, but you need to see this, also.
You didn't start this thread, but I think it would be wise to not respond anymore, because no matter what, some people will never get it, no matter how you explain it to them.
As for the banning of a member today, that person was banned for his response, which was an unacceptable tirade and will not be tolerated. It wasn't because of you, it was because of his behavior and response.
So, I'm going to close this- I'm done discussing it and I want everyone else to be done with it also. Move on to something else.
ONE more argumentative post and you're out. We are all done with this and you keep obsessing about it.
Do I make myself CLEAR?
Dori, stop feeding the situation, please. If you two want to argue, take it to private messaging. I see one more post about this, I'm going to take care of all of it. NONE of us have time for "who's right, who's wrong".
Just knock off the public arguing.
Exactly. I'm treatment intolerant. I can't do the interferon/ribaviron again because it put me in the hospital.
I'm pretty sure most of the articles I posted stated that one or the other or both of these herbs help the liver stay healthier. Some of the articles state that more tests are needed. I wish they'd do more tests! That would be great! Doctors I know state these herbs can help keep the liver healthier for those who are treatment intolerant like me.
I have to do whatever I can do to HELP my liver stay as clean as possible and reduce inflammation since I am treatment intolerant. Some doctors and articles claim it does help reduce the viral load and reduce the inflammation but there haven't been enough tests yet to prove that. Some tests say it HAS been proven that these herbs help reduce inflammation and helps to cleanse the liver. Some don't. *shrug* I choose to believe that they can help me to keep the virus from coming back. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong.
"Fewer and milder symptoms of liver disease and a somewhat better quality of life" works for me. I'll take it! Since I am treatment intolerant (cannot take interferon/ribaviron because of how it effects my health with my white blood count so low that I have no immune system and ended up in the hospital), people like me have to do the best we can do. I hope and pray the virus remains undetected.
One doctor I know, however, did state that the Bulpeurum definitely brought the viral loads down for his patients. I have no reason to doubt him or question the validity of his statement. He's one of the most honest people I've ever known and he managed the dosages and blood tests for his patients. However, I have not done the research to find out what the status is regarding controlled tests of that particular herb. My guess is, controlled tests of either herb would more likely be found in China or Japan, not in the western world, as these eastern treatments, not western, for helping the liver stay healthy. Unfortunately, I don't read either Chinese or Japanese so I can't search those websites and find out. I AM going to try to find a Chinese Medicine/Western Medicine practitioner because in the US where I live there are some doctors who are practicing both. Even TV's Dr. Oz (i know so what, right? LOL) promotes supplements and Eastern medicine practices like acupuncture and others. Hey, and if the virus comes back? Guess what? I'm going to try acupuncture, too. Who knows what else I'll try. I'll try anything that seems like there is evidence that it can help if the virus returns. I don't want the darn virus in me. I tried to get rid of it, for now it's gone, so I'm taking precautions to KEEP it gone and if it comes back, I'll still be doing my research and doing what I can.
I posted a LOT of links last night. Many of the articles had references to other articles by NIH and other respected authorities in the footnotes. From what I've read and from advice I've been given by two different doctors, it is my opinion that both of these substances help the liver stay healthier.
I'm no salesman and I'm not a doctor. I'm just a person who got very sick from interferon/ribaviron which screwed me up bigtime and I was allergic to the only drug available they have to give me back an immune system while on those meds.
We all do the best we can. That's all I can say. I'm doing the best I can. I'm finding all the resources I can because I'm treatment intolerant and if the darn virus reappears, I can't take the current treatment so I want to do SOMETHING to try to help myself stay healthier while praying that the virus doesn't come back. What else can I do?
What would YOU do if you were treatment intolerant? Would you just do nothing? Just continue on your way and pretend like you never took the treatment and never had a bad reaction to it? Would you worry that the virus would come back or would you not care if it came back? If you knew you couldn't take the interferon and ribaviron and had been through a life-threatening reaction to the drugs, please tell me.. what would you do? I'd be curious to know.
Sorry the text is so large. The text editor doesn't seem to be working on my Safari browser for Mac. I can't make it smaller. Sorry.
Also, I read on another thread that someone got banned and I'm very very sorry about that! If the confrontation with me caused anybody to get banned, I feel extremely bad about it.
Sorry also but I said I wasn't coming back and here I am. I guess I'll keep coming back until people stop talking about what I posted. Once the topic is over and "as Dee quoted" etc stops, I'll stop replying.
-- Edited by virginiap on Thursday 28th of October 2010 11:47:13 PM
When comparing silymarin users to non-silymarin users in the HALT-C trial, the following was discovered:
1. No beneficial effect of silymarin was found on ALT levels (serum alanine aminotransferases) an enzyme often elevated with liver injury.
2. No beneficial effect of silymarin was found on Hepatitis C virus RNA levels.
3. Those on silymarin showed significantly fewer liver-related symptoms than non-users.
4. Those on silymarin scored higher on quality-of-life parameters than non-users.
5. After adjusting for age, race, education, alcohol consumption, exercise, body mass index and smoking, silymarin users showed significantly less fatigue, nausea, liver pain, anorexia, muscle and joint pain, and improvements in general health over non-users.
If you want to say Milk Thistle improves things for you fine. But that cut and paste is from an article, posted by D to support the statement
"I recommend lots of exercise, staying well hydrated, and taking milk thistle as well as bulpeurum (both milk thistle and bulpeurum are liver cleansers and are proven to reduce the viral load)."
Could I have been more constructive in my arguement that ML doesn't lower VL ? Yes. But an article posted by someone saying that ML lowers VL, says the exact opposite.
Here's another C&P from an alternative med website.
The HALT-C study mentioned above found that silymarin use by hepatitis C patients was associated with fewer and milder symptoms of liver disease and somewhat better quality of life, but there was no change in virus activity or liver inflammation. The researchers emphasize that this was a retrospective study, not a controlled clinical trial. More research on milk thistle for hepatitis C is needed before a recommendation can be made.
So to say ML lowers VL, is inaccurate. Supported by the web-sites and articles presented by Dee.
James